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February 24, 2007

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» An American Werewolf (or citizen) in Europe from nathansaper.com
Daniel Mark Harrison at “Global Perspective” has a great list of suggestions for Europeans traveling in the US. Based on one of his seven points, I would like to add a suggestion for Europeans on encountering an American in their home countries. H... [Read More]

» How To Talk to Americans from Atlantic Review
Daniel Mark Harrison, a financial journalist and Englishman in New York, describes the 12 most subtle but important mistakes English people and Europeans in particular make when they come to America. In fact, I think on many levels, these are some o [Read More]

Comments

Just Some Guy

Fascinating comments! I'm American and find the self-analysis and experienced commentary on this subject quite intrigueing.

Obviously you like America and Americans in general. You probably know that most Americans have encountered, at some point, a European who generally hates America and Americans. I once sat next to a young Swedish woman on a plane. We conversed a bit, and she kept saying things like, "but don't you agree that your country does not have enough culture, and that your government is terrible?" I'd like to see a response to your post by a European like that.

MB

But most of all, DO NOT take any of the above advice seriously.

Chester White

DO NOT:

1. Automatically assume we think your "free health care" is any good. Some of us have direct experience with it and, as in my case, had a horrible outcome.

2. Assume we all hate George Bush and every single Republican ever born.

3. Assume we will agree with you that capitalism is horrible and cruel and that every enlightened person on earth mustagree. There are 9,000,000+ millionaire households in the US and most of them got that way on their own. How many are there in Europe?

4. Tell us we are selfish because we are only 6% of the world's population, yet produce way more than that fraction of the pollution. Ask us what percentage of the world's GDP we put out, not to mention what percentage of the world's security we provide, for free.

5. Fail to bathe.

I could go on for days, but this will suffice for now.

swampwoman

Sounds as though you may be mistaking behavior in the northeast with the rest of America. Behavior such as you describe would be viewed in my area as extremely rude and offensive.

Tood

Debate Europeans with this article about why America will still be the only superpower in 2030.

http://futurist.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/05/why_the_us_will.html

A great conversation starter.

geekWithA.45

>> don't be afraid to ask someone who they are going to vote for at the next election right off the bat.

Are you _insane_?

No, DO NOT ask this right off the bat.

Apparently, the author never heard the aphorism that "religion and politics makes poor dinner conversation."

This is a safe question ONLY in a homogenous political environment, where most folks are playing for the same team.

In a mixed environment, you'll either queue up a powderkeg, or, more likely, the question will be squeegeed off to the side, with some neutral, noncommital response.

With tensions and polarization at an all time high, folks in politically mixed environments are obscuring their team colors, so as to be able to carry on with biz.

Folks are interested in talking politics, but not interested in general donnybrooks, so tread lightly.

-----------------

Another point, mainly for my UK cousins. This is something I've heard more than once, and it strikes us as surreal and slightly unhinged every time we encounter it.

Do NOT refer to the American revolution in the diminutive, or as anything other than an established, historical fait accompli.

It's rarely a topic of conversation to begin with, and it's not like we're going to rub it in your face, or anything. We're pretty matter of fact about the whole thing, so there's no need to be coy.

Peter CArroll

This seems pretty good to me, as a Brit who has visited the US since 1968 and lived here since 1974. Except for the one about anti-depressants. That's just silly.

Dave S.

My goodness. I'm an American, but apparently I think like a European. Just about everything that you identify as "wrong" (except #3) would be quite welcome by me.

Maybe that's why I spend so little time out of my home.

Jonathan Walz

Interesting, somewhat funny and witty observations, all cast with a wide net of typecasting individuals with a cultural group-think concepts that seek to find strategic work arounds so that you can feel as though you are more appealling to your American conterparts. Rather sad, really. To walk about worrying about what others think and reacting to stereotypes instead acting upon your own creativity.

Cliff

I take exception to the statement that Americans are not well traveled. Sure, most americans have not left the country, but that does not mean we are not well traveled. In Europe, one cannot help but to travel to a different country; if you drive for more than a couple of hours in any one direction it is bound to happen. This is because Europe is SMALL. The United States, but contrast, is quite large. Indeed, it is several times the size of Europe. So, for a European to claim to be better traveled merely because he has visited three or four or eight countries in Europe is fatuious. Sure, if an American travels from New York to LA, he has not left the country, and the people still speak the same language, but I assure you that culturally, he has gone as far as from Prague to London.

-cliff

Mike Anderson

8. When west of the Mississippi and east of the Sierras, do not assume that rough clothing and vernacular speech correspond to a lack of education or worse yet, a lack of intelligence. Ignorant American rubes have been fleecing intelligent (but not smart) Englishmen for centuries.

...

1,897,326. Watch your language. Should you find that you have made a stray pencil-mark and wish to erase it, do not ask for a "rubber."

wlpeak

Generally sound advice, however it overlooks something most of the Europeans I have met seem to not intuitively grasp.

The US is a huge populous country. It has regions just like Europe. Each with its own quirks of culture.

Your advice seems targeted to the northeast and the more urban areas at that.

Be careful of assumptions about provincialism especially in areas with a heavy military population. The military and their children are heavily traveled and learn new places intimately.

Rural areas can be quite surprising as well. You mentioned a culture of immigrants, I have only a vague idea what you mean by that, but some of the small rural communities in the southeast haven't substantively changed since their ancestors came over from England. And German, Czech, Pole and other smaller colonies are peppered throughout the midwest from near Canada to down into Texas.

In general I would suggest avoiding thinking about any region in the US based on how it is portrayed in TV or Film. Regional bias exists here just as anywhere. That's why they call it 'Fly over country'.

jim

Interesting perspective.

Many of these points are valid just for the somewhat more introverted or intellectual Americans, on how to deal with their fellow Americans.

It also sounds like the American you've dealt with have mostly been from fairly large cities in the Northeast. The BosNyWash corridor has a different culture from the rest of the country. More aggressive, more anonymous, more competitive.

American culture is fairly extroverted and aggressive. People move a lot, change jobs a lot, change friends a lot. So they learn these skills to survive and thrive.

Learning deeply personal details about a persons life within hours of meeting them is not atypical. At the same time, having a fairly close friend move or change jobs, and end the friendship, is not atypical either.

The stereotype of Americans often having a large, but not deep, circle of friends has a good bit of truth to it.

What else. Yes, there is a an anti-intellectual side of America. A super-logical debating style is not trusted by most Americans. They instinctively will think you are trying to either a)trick them or b)look down on them. We are suckers for British accents, though.

On listening to travel stories. It depends. Americans like hearing stories from foreigners so they can relate it to their own friends. That way they look well-traveled themselves.

Many conversations can be seen as competitive bragging. You brag about something you did, then I brag about something I did. We learn how to do this from childhood.

Since most Americans are not well-travelled (especially outside the big cities), then you are breaking this cultural norm. They can't participate. If you are a foreigner they won't mind, but they won't like an American who tries that.

It's best to brag about something you know the other person can also brag about. Americans like to brag. Steering the conversation to an area where you know they can't will be seen as rude and show-offy.

Of course, it's a big, big country, with a great variety of personal and conversational styles.

Darrell

I think most of your points are overstated. Relax, be positive, be yourself, don't be an ass, and you'll have no problems. Most Americans love meeting Europeans. On politics, if you're in a "red" state, don't start off by badmouthing President Bush, you're not likely to make friends that way.

WGBrodie

Another valuable tip to EU visitors (especially journalists):

DO NOT spend too much time in Manhattan, NYC or other narrow enclaves. You will be doomed to repeat the mistake of some who have deluded themselves and others by concluding NYC *is* America and attempt to extrapolate. It will become obvious to better-travelled visitors that, as with London and Great Britain, so too with New York and America ... not always the seat of our best character, wisdom and humility.

Kevin

Two more:
1) Don't assume about religion. The local variations are unbelievable. For example in the course of a week in the NW, a liberal part of the US, I had dinner with people who talked extensively about their church and lunch with someone who used "born again Christian" as a curse.

2)Assume we can't speak other languages. It's not as common as in Europe, but many of us know Spanish, and may have grown up in families with non-English speakers. For example, my paternal grandmother would not speak to me except in French and my maternal grandparents were much more comfortable in a dialect of Russian. I've lost most of it but my brother hasn't and he learned Italian to talk with his in-laws.

A 3rd generation American

Jake

"In fact, politics is a very good conversation starter in America, so don't be afraid to ask someone who they are going to vote for at the next election right off the bat."

That is the worst advice you can give a person anywhere at anytime. 85% of the time you will end up in a verbal and perhaps a physical fight.

You should never discuss politics or religion unless you know the person well enough to know what their reaction will be.

Cro

To be honest, as a Mid-westerner that has lived and worked all over Europe, I'd say your advice is hogwash. It's insult wrapped in advice ... we Europeans are trained from a young age to logically dissect an argument, yadda, yadda, yadda.... Americans over-brag, blah blah blah.

Maybe Manhattan IS full of assholes, but it by no means defines America and your advice wouldn't be worth donkey snot here in Chicago.

Patrick Carroll

This is a brilliant piece of work! I'm saying this as someone who grew up mostly in the UK and Ireland, and who's been in the US since 1985.

One thing I'd add (though, as a middle-aged guy who's been kind of out of touch with the EU for a while, I'm unsure of the value of the insight) is not to be afraid to ask for more money from your employer.

Growing up I got a huge dose of the "money is the root of all evil" thing. This doesn't really hold in the US, where money is mostly seen as (a) a tool, and (b) a way to keep score.

So, if you're working here, negotiate, negotiate, negotite. And when it's all over, ask again in 90 days.

Obviously, you've got to do it from the perspective of what you've accomplished, but do ask. Otherwise, well, you'll get trampled by everyone else.

Molon Labe

May I add a few more?

8. Don't assume that the Americans you are with speak only English or are narrowly educated or untravelled.

It's true of some Americans, of course. However, I've been alternately amused, offended and annoyed at smug, condescending comments made in my presence by those who assumed I couldn't understand the language they spoke or that I wouldn't recognize the literary, political or social references implicit in their 'clever' remarks. If I'm REALLY annoyed I sometimes answer back in the language used -- or in a third.

9. Don't assume that because you've been to New York or Los Angeles you understand the US and its complexities. Within our own borders we have as much cultural, linguistic, social and geographic diversity as western Europe taken together. Many of us have lived in highly differing areas of the country or in neighborhoods with recent immigrants from a variety of places around the world. There's more here than most Europeans realize.

10. Don't assume that most Americans are as class conscious as most Europeans.

We're by and large a nation of strivers, of entrepreneurs, of blue collar kids who go to college and become white collar professionals. We tend to value achievement, not birth status. Be especially careful of this if you're in the West -- that guy in a plaid flannel shirt driving a dusty pickup truck might well be able to afford to buy a considerable chunk of your home country if he chose.

11. Don't miss the opportunity to really SEE the country. Spend time in the mountains, in the deserts, on our shores (not just the warm beaches, but also the Pacific northwest or the coasts of Maine or the islands of North Carolina), in our forests. While it's not true of many in our largest cities, the majority of Americans enjoy and have been shaped by the big outdoors of this vast nation. We certainly didn't create it, but we do enjoy it.

I hope you will too.

W.J.A

"In fact, politics is a very good conversation starter in America, so don't be afraid to ask someone who they are going to vote for at the next election right off the bat."

This is only good advice if you ask the American the *American's* opinion, and listen with friendly but non-commital curiousity. Then the American is chatty and opinionated. By far the worst and surprisingly common faux pas Europeans make is to start lecturing Americans about American politics. It's the height of arrogance, though ironically, these same Europeans often complain about "American arrogance". Also, you're almost sure to embarrass yourself, because by necessity European knowledge of US politics is third hand, and largely a mix of fact and strange overreaches and generalizations and even conspiracy theory. (I can't tell you how many Europeans have cited Michael Moore to me as if he's a credible source from the Brookings Institute.) If you want a perfect illustration of the phenomenon, watch Whit Stillman's *Barcelona*, and the Spanish intellectual who informs his docile audience of students that it's a fact that the leading US intelligence agency controls American labor unions-- after all, the largest one is "the AFL-CIA".

That's who you're probably going to sound like. So dude, seriously, just ask questions and listen politely, and when we want *your* opinion of America, we'll beat it out of you.

Shannon Love

Some of these points require translation:

1. Assume that your typically understated demeanor with be recognized and admired by your American colleagues.

Don't assume that Americans will understand your subtle conversational hints intended to convey your position in Europe's archaic social order. Americans do not care where you or your people come from. Americans care about what you, AS AN INDIVIDUAL, can or cannot do.

2. Politely respond to the question "how are you doing?" with a brief "fine, thanks" and walk away shyly without engaging in much further dialog.

Because Americans lack anything approaching the class conscious of the typical European, the individual serving you your coffee will actually believe they are your social equal and expect you to respond in kind. It's disturbing but one can grow accustom to it. Remember this is essentially a culture of equal individuals so remember to act like one.

3. Try to exaggerate an overseas experience for dramatic effect. Or, for that matter, underestimate the intelligence of your American companion.

Strangely, Americans do not consider Europeans who have tuttled around Europe to be "well traveled." For some reason, Americans do not regard riding a train from Paris to Prague as trans-cultural experience.

4. Seize every point an American colleague is saying in a debate by analyzing and deconstructing his/her sentence structure word-by-word and pointing out the flaws in his/her logic.

Don't expect Americans to mistake repeated appeals to intellectual authority as logical empiricism. Don't expect Americans to mistake a clever turn of phrase for reality. Don't expect Americans to find Europe's history of bloodshed and discord indicators of a more wise and worldly culture.

5. Hold back on sharing fairly intimate/personal stories on a first meeting

Again, Americans only care about you as a individual. If you don't talk about yourself, you don't convey any information that an American finds useful.

6. Assume that anyone who is on some kind of anti-depressant or who has been on one/several is insane and that you shouldn't talk to them

Don't assume that the pill-popping culture of far Left of center urban areas represents the entire country.

7. Assume that every American is pro-war in Iraq.

Don't expect Americans realize that life is meaningless and that we are helpless to affect positive change in the world. Unfortunately, few Americans recognize impotence and cynicism for the virtues they are.

The real problem with Americans is that they do not realize that the culture, history and politics of Europe established the template for all human societies and that deviation from European norms represents a serious fault.

I guess we will grow up someday.

JorgXMcKie

I'm in agreement with those who point out that, assuming that this is good advice (may or may not be), it works at best in the NE. I'm not convinced it would work much more than a small majority of the time there.

Having said that, my experience in the upper Midwest in grad school is that Americans from either coast are very uncomfortable in the Midwest for different reasons. That is, the Midwest is a very different culture than LA/SF and also than Bos-Wash. Those from south of DC have an easier time of it. I have seen similar effects in business. Thus, even Americans need to be able to adjust to internal cultural differences.

Dude, the US is fookin' HUGE!! Exchange students in high school and international students in college take anywhere from months to years to figure out just how big the US is. Even our Chinese students and colleagues are amazed at both how big the country is and how widespread large cities are. In this way, the US is much more like India. Lotsa big(gish) cities and lotsa culture variation.

My advice would be what I would give any good salesman: watch your contact carefully and mimic their behavior to the extent possible to you. Let them initiate behavior. You can't go too wrong that way.

Nigel

Nice post, it was a fun read. I've had a conversation like #6 before and didn't know how to respond. #1 is a big one because some Americans interpret this as a lack of self confidence.

I'd add that Europeans shouldn't base their view of Americans on any idiots that they may meet. For example a gas station attendant in Denver heard my accent and asked where I was from, I told him I came from the UK, and he replied "You know we kicked your arse in the civil war"

-Great story, the kind Euros love to hear, but that guy is one of kind.

Brown Line

I would offer Europeans one bit of advice about Americans: Forget everything you "learned" about us from the movies or television. Just set it aside. Pretend you never saw it, because it is almost entirely horseshit. Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut, draw your own conclusions, and you'll do just fine.

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